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> Engine and Transmission > Mercon Vs. Mercon V - Per Ford Engineers!
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Jeepsbeme
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Registered: Mar 2004
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Mercon Vs. Mercon V - Per Ford Engineers!

I was participating in an event yesterday at which two CD4E transaxle engineers from Ford just happened to be present. Although it wasn't the focus of the event, the subject of the use of Mercon vs. Synthetic Mercon V did come up briefly as a side discussion. To summarize the differences they mentioned:


1) Mercon has a more linear coefficient of friction than Mercon V. The coefficient of friction for Mercon increases at a relatively linear rate as the pressure applied to the clutch increases during the shift. With Mercon V the coefficient of friction increases at a comparatively more rapid rate as the pressure increases. This may result in a slightly firmer shift feel (which many people on this site seem to prefer - although many drivers don't want to feel the shifts at all).

Remember that when a clutch in an any automatic trans is applied, it's not direct contact between the clutch material and the metal plates that transmits the torque. The torque is actually transmitted through a microscopic layer of trans fluid under shear load between them.


2) The use of Mercon V will improve transaxle durability due to its improved lubrication characteristics as well as due to its improved resistance to thermal breakdown.


They are in the process of converting to Mercon V as the factory fill in the CD4E transaxle.


Let the controversy begin! ...again!!

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Jeepsbeme is offline Old Post 09-07-2006 04:19 PM
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ove1
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Re: Mercon Vs. Mercon V - Per Ford Engineers!

quote:
Originally posted by Jeepsbeme
...2) The use of Mercon V will improve transaxle durability due to its improved lubrication characteristics as well as due to its improved resistance to thermal breakdown.


They are in the process of converting to Mercon V as the factory fill in the CD4E transaxle. ...


Did they say if any changes have been made to friction materials used in the transmission and/or if any there are any changes to the PCM firmware programming for the transmission?

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ove1 is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 01:37 AM
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Jeepsbeme
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Yes they did. They stated no changes are planned or necessary.

Their only reservation about the fluid change is that some of their more critical customers may not be quite as satisfied with the slightly firmer upshifts. They did consider a software change to compensate for it, but they ultimately felt the risk to customer satisfaction will be minimal compared to the overall benefits of the fluid upgrade. Firmer shifts (less slippage) within reason, are almost always directionally better for durability.

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Jeepsbeme is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 04:54 AM
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Big Jim
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Just a short note on the topic of slightly firmer shifts.

The best of the transmission rebuilders I worked with always tried to slightly firm up the shifts. The transmissions had less wear and lasted longer with gently increased shift firmness. For that matter, most shift kit upgrads do essentually the same thing. The difference being that the best ones know how to get that benefit without resorting to a shift kit.

Why did they do that? Because they had fewer come backs.


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Big Jim is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 05:38 AM
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GatorJ
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Is anyone else troubled by the fact that Ford engineers, who a few years ago were undoubtedly behind the issuance of the now famous Mercon only TSB, are now touting the superior characteristics of Mercon V. What changed?


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GatorJ is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 06:10 AM
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DiDiscape
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Yeh, what he said. What changed their minds?

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DiDiscape is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 06:41 AM
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Hertel
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Yeah, I'm also troubled by what GatorJ said too. What's the deal?

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Hertel is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 06:59 AM
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Big Jim
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I suspect that this whole thing about lack of compatibility may be overblown. Engineers in general are very concerned about validation. Until something is validated they are very reluctant to move toward it.

Look back Justagirl's posts and you may get a glimps of this where she talked about the expense of changing over a factory to different fluid as well as the cost of testing (validation).


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Big Jim is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 07:23 AM
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LX302
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Right, but I'll stick with DEX III/Mercon on my drain and fills, even though V sounds like it would work better.
Not sure who it was that posted a while back, that mixing the two different formula's might be the reason for some failures, and removing all of the Mercon to add V is almost impossible, as the clutches are impregnated with it.

So yes, filling the trans with Mercon V from the beginning might be a good idea.

Just my 2 cents.


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LX302 is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 04:20 PM
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PollKat
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quote:
Originally posted by LX302
Right, but I'll stick with DEX III/Mercon on my drain and fills, even though V sounds like it would work better.
Not sure who it was that posted a while back, that mixing the two different formula's might be the reason for some failures, and removing all of the Mercon to add V is almost impossible, as the clutches are impregnated with it.


After communicating twice with FoMoCo's Chintan Ved about this.Here is his last sentence about mixing the two.

"To summarize for automatic transmissions - where MERCON was recommended in the past MERCON V can be used too however vice versa is not allowed."

Chintan Ved
Automatic Transmission Fluid Development
Ford Motor Company
Tel # xxx-xxx-xxxx
Fax # xxx-xxx-xxxx

So,according to Him you can drain out Mercon and re-fill with Mercon-V. But if you have Mercon-V installed do not drain and re-fill with Mercon.....And no he did not answer one bit of my question about the T/C Shudder To which was my original question about the two fluids.

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PollKat is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 05:22 PM
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ove1
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quote:
Originally posted by PollKat
...So,according to Him you can drain out Mercon and re-fill with Mercon-V. But if you have Mercon-V installed do not drain and re-fill with Mercon.....And no he did not answer one bit of my question about the T/C Shudder To which was my original question about the two fluids.
So, the conundrum is what is the percentage of Mercon V vs. Mercon needs to be attained before it's Mercon refilled with Mercon V and not Mercon V refilled with Mercon. Either way they are mixed, which once was forbidden, but is no more?

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ove1 is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 07:28 PM
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GatorJ
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PollKat: I believe there is a chance that there might be a slight misunderstanding. There is a lot of literature that suggests that Mercon V is backwards compatible to applications calling for Mercon, but the reverse is not true. Was he saying you can't use Mercon in applications calling for Mercon V? If so, that makes sense. I don't believe he was saying that if you have a transmission that calls for Mercon and at some point you "flushed" and refilled with Mercon V, that you could never go back to Mercon again. Hope you understand the distinction I'm trying to make.


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GatorJ is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 08:15 PM
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PollKat
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quote:
Originally posted by GatorJ
PollKat: I believe there is a chance that there might be a slight misunderstanding. There is a lot of literature that suggests that Mercon V is backwards compatible to applications calling for Mercon, but the reverse is not true. Was he saying you can't use Mercon in applications calling for Mercon V? If so, that makes sense. I don't believe he was saying that if you have a transmission that calls for Mercon and at some point you "flushed" and refilled with Mercon V, that you could never go back to Mercon again. Hope you understand the distinction I'm trying to make.

GJ, I see what your saying. But again that's Exactly how he answered it the second time. I understood it as You can drain Mercon and refill with V, but if the trans calls for V, then that's it, V it is. Every one here can do as they wish. But my dip-stick says Mercon the owners manual says Mercon and even the Chilton Manual says Mercon (in bold no less) so that's what I'm gonna use. It runs GREAT the only dislike is the T/C schedule but then just about everyone complains about that. And I hardly think Mercon V can change that.......
Again he couldn't answer the simple part regarding T/C shudder.
Heck maybe a letter from an Attorney using some fancy words (that I would have to look up) might get his attention. (J/K)

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PollKat is offline Old Post 09-08-2006 08:40 PM
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PollKat
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quote:
Originally posted by XcapeRF03
I hate to tell you this, but I noticed a big difference in the T/C drop down when I used that Valvoline MaxLife Mercon/DextronIII. When my Escape is cold or just for the first 10-15 miles, the T/C drops into 45 mph. After 15 miles, it drops at exactly 52 mph, no exceptions.

Shifts are smooth, precise, and a noticable difference in power. Not a kick in your pants type, but it seems as if there is less guesswork for the transmission after it warms up.


You don't have to hate to tell me anything. I'm a good listener/reader. Also I can understand a shift difference (1st to 2nd etc.) using Mercon V. But I don't get how it can affect the T/C schedule......Because I have been considering the X-cal just for this reason. I have been monitoring the throttle position with my Scan-Gauge. The T/C locks-up @ 43mph.(on level ground & T/P) Now then it will un-lock when I use more than 23% T/P. It dose not matter weather It's flat terrain @ 70mph or hilly terrain @ 50-60 mph.(even using cruise control) It is consistent 23% T/P. Now can Anyone explain how using Mercon V will improve this???? I understand how Mercon V will change how it feels when locking/unlocking. But how can it change the when ?? Guess I'll have to hook it up (scan-gauge) to a G.M. 4T-45E and watch the T/C and T/P settings. I'm ready to read/listen.......

btw; If Chintan Ved will give me an extended warranty on the trans. I'll change it immediately over to -V- and report back. But He's not gonna do that....

Last edited by PollKat on 09-09-2006 at 04:53 PM

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PollKat is offline Old Post 09-09-2006 03:49 PM
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