3rd Gear

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 326

Time for a new Alt

So i've been having electrical issues even after I replaced my battery. Finally took it in and apparently the Alt has been fried.

Based on previous posts here, i'm going with the Extreme Amperage 200 AMP () for the replacement. I seem to recall (but can't find the threads again) that it isn't quite the bolt on replacement that Nathan says it is (something about trimming parts of the housing?).

I will be having a shop do the install for me, but if those that have installed these Alts can provide any tricks/info that I can pass on I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
-dave

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Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Richmond, Va
Posts: 60

I haven't put a 200amp on the Escape yet, but I have put one my Ranger. You have to upgrade the battery cable going from the alt to the battery. I know a lot of people are using 4g wire or 2/0 cable, but I went with 1/0 cable and a 200amp circuit breaker. You also have to remember to find the wire from the battery (or distribution block- depending how the Escape is wired) to the alternator field coil (I think they are usually spliced into the stock battery cable somewhere) and re-attach it to the battery. Without it attached, the alt will not be able to read the electrical system, and will not charge.

To get the MAXIMUM power out of your alt, you'll also need to do a couple of other mods. You should upgrade the grounding cable from the battery to ground, and engine to chassis as well. You can get away with 2g wire there, but a 200 amp alt definetly needs a good size hot wire and circuit breaker.

Now remember, I haven't done this to an Escape, but I would think it's "basic" electrical components are typical of most other vehicles. Do this at your own risk !!!!

Here's a couple of pics of the 200 amp in my Ranger:

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3rd Gear

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 326

The new Alternator came in last night. He didn't have any 200 AMP stators, so he upped it to a 250 at no charge. Nathan rocks!

But that kinda kicks me in the end anyway My dealer believes that the stock wiring was good enough for the 200 AMP, but they agree that it needs new wiring for a 250. Both them and my other shop seem to be shy/clueless about replacing the wiring though (dealer actually suggested I take it elsewhere for the wiring).

My biggest problem is that they can't give me a good estimate on how much wire is actually needed. And since I need to supply them the cable and 0-gauge isn't exactly cheap, i'd like to do more than guess wildly at the amount I need.

Anyone have a good estimate?

Thanks,
-dave

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Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Richmond, Va
Posts: 60

Well, they're wrong about the stock wiring handling the 200amp. It MIGHT for a while (depending what kind of load you're putting on it), but it will cook as soon as you need the high output.

Trust me on this. I've seen several rangers fry because of this, and I doubt the escape wiring is any heavier than the ranger.

Anyway, to figure out how much wire you need, first figure out where you plan to run the new wires. Then just take a tape measure and run the same route. I gave myself an extra foot, and it worked out great.

As for finding a shop to do it......good luck. Most shops will not touch it simply because of liability issues. You MIGHT get luck enough to find a car audio shop, or speed shop that does custom work that'll tackle it for you. Get ready to pay some serious dough at a speed shop, but the car audio shop should be able to handle the job and do it at a reasonable cost.

The key to the entire deal is finding the wire that feeds the alternator field coil. Once you find that, the rest is just a matter of re-routing and re-connecting the new wires.

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3rd Gear

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 326

quote:

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Originally posted by tekrsq
You also have to remember to find the wire from the battery (or distribution block- depending how the Escape is wired) to the alternator field coil (I think they are usually spliced into the stock battery cable somewhere) and re-attach it to the battery.

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Thanks again for your help.

I have been smacked enough times now that i'm going to stop listening to what I now believe are idiots (my dealer and sound shop) and do this the right way. Since I have to send the Alt back (something is bent and giving the pulley an elliptical spin) I now have some time to get all the right parts and do this right.

What I know:
Going with 0-gauge wire from the Alt to the battery.

Getting a 250AMP fuse block to put in (looks like it will sit a few feet from the Alt).

Where my battery is

What i'm not sure of:
Looking under the hood last night, it looks like the Alt is on the lower left (facing the engine) back side of the engine? Can someone please confirm that (I am actually good with stuff like this, just not that familiar with cars)

Where is the distro block on an 04 V6? Does the new line from the battery to the distro need to be 0g too, or is a smaller gauge (if so, 4g?) fine here?

What is this wire to the field coil? I noticed when I replaced my battery (and the terminals) that there was a smaller (8g?) wire wrapped around the main battery cable. Is that it?
Does this wire run anywhere else besides the Alt and the battery? Can I just run another 8g line along with my 0g and expect to be able to tell my shop to connect it to the field coil?

Anyone know if there is anything else attached to the factory wiring harness, or can I have it removed after they switch over to the new wiring?

What I am thinking:
Run the line up the firewall from the Alt to a fuse block mounted on that lip at the top of the engine bay. Then run the line around the back and the right (facing) side to the battery. Run another line from the battery to the distro. And finally upgrade the ground cable from the battery to the wheel well.

Then i'll have a shop do the actual Alt swap and tell them to connect up the new wiring rather than the old stuff.

Sound right? Other things i've missed? Any other advice?

Thanks,
-dave

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Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Richmond, Va
Posts: 60

I'll do what I can for you, but remember we have an 06 4cycl. I have the wiring diagrams for both the 6 cyl & 4 cyl 06 models, so hopefully I can get you in the ballpark. I'll use the 06 6 cyl diagrams to help you, but PLEASE double check with someone that can verify things on your 04. This is our first Escape, and I'm not sure if/when things have been changed from earlier models.

I have been smacked enough times now that i'm going to stop listening to what I now believe are idiots (my dealer and sound shop) and do this the right way. Since I have to send the Alt back (something is bent and giving the pulley an elliptical spin) I now have some time to get all the right parts and do this right.

Good man !!!!!!!

What I know:
Going with 0-gauge wire from the Alt to the battery.

Getting a 250AMP fuse block to put in (looks like it will sit a few feet from the Alt).

Where my battery is

Sounds good. Get the fuse block as close as possible to the alternator, without puting it in a dangerous place. The closer a fuse is to the source, the more effective it is if something shorts out. I would try to mount it on the firewall, relativey close to the alternator.

Man, 250 is a BEAST.

What i'm not sure of:
Looking under the hood last night, it looks like the Alt is on the lower left (facing the engine) back side of the engine? Can someone please confirm that (I am actually good with stuff like this, just not that familiar with cars)

Can't confirm this, but I'd say you're probably right. Sounds about right.

Where is the distro block on an 04 V6? Does the new line from the battery to the distro need to be 0g too, or is a smaller gauge (if so, 4g?) fine here?

Again, double check. BUT our 06 has it directly beside the battery, mounted on the firewall. I think it says something like "fusebox" on the cover.

You will probably be fine with 4g from the distr block to the battery (it's only 2 ft of wire). However, I can't be certain without running a test on the alt to see exactly what it puts out under certain loads. I'd say 2g would definetly be fine, but if you have the extra 0g and terminal ends, go for it. Better safe than sorry.

What is this wire to the field coil? I noticed when I replaced my battery (and the terminals) that there was a smaller (8g?) wire wrapped around the main battery cable. Is that it?
Does this wire run anywhere else besides the Alt and the battery? Can I just run another 8g line along with my 0g and expect to be able to tell my shop to connect it to the field coil?

On your positive battery terminal, you should have 2 red cables. The bigger cable runs directly to the starter, the smaller cable to the distr block.

If you open the distr block, you should see 2 cables attached to the circuit block somewhere close to the front, usually on the side closest to the engine. 1 is red (from the battery), the other should be yellow/white(it is on the 06). The yellow/white is from the alternator. This is the cable you are looking to replace with 0 gauge & the 250 amp circuit breaker.

According to the diagram I have here for the 06, the alternator field coil wire is a black/yellow wire coming out of the wiring bundle from the alternator. This wire is run directly to fuse 9 in the distr block with a 15amp fuse. You should not have to change or move this wire IF yours is wired like this. Again, PLEASE confirm this with someone that has a wiring diagram for the 04 !!!!!!

Anyone know if there is anything else attached to the factory wiring harness, or can I have it removed after they switch over to the new wiring?

Again, confirm with an 04 diagram, but if your 04 is wired like the 06, then you can safely remove the yellow/white cable from the alt to the distr block. There is nothing else attached to this cable (except for a couple of fusible links).

What I am thinking:
Run the line up the firewall from the Alt to a fuse block mounted on that lip at the top of the engine bay. Then run the line around the back and the right (facing) side to the battery. Run another line from the battery to the distro. And finally upgrade the ground cable from the battery to the wheel well.

Then i'll have a shop do the actual Alt swap and tell them to connect up the new wiring rather than the old stuff.

Sound right? Other things i've missed? Any other advice?


Sounds about right. See above. Remember, the longer the run (of wire), the bigger wire you need to handle the same amount of current (amps in this case). You'll be fine with the 0g, but just a reminder for future projects.

As for the ground from the battery, if your battery has (2) 6g cables from the negative post, then I wouldn't upgrade it unless you want to. That should be more than sufficient. If it only has (1) 6g or (2) 8g cables, then I would upgrade. I like to be a little on the safe (overkill) side when it comes to electrical issues.

I would DEFINETLY upgrade the grounding cable from the engine to the frame, though. A 6g cable (battery cable) is fine for this.

Keep us posted on the progress. I'll help anyway I can, but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE double check all this with someone that knows about your 04 model !!!!!!!!!

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Platinum Overdrive

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: HAMILTON TWP, NJ
Posts: 3419

Make it simple. I did this on mine.
Get 15' Red Cable, Fuse and Holder, Terminals.
Run the wire along the Firewall. This way it stays away from Heat and Moving parts. As added margine of Safety, I used Plastic Split Loom to protect the wire. Run next to the Strut tower. Under the Air intake hose to the Battery.
Use the Same Gauge wire for Ground. But Ground it to one of the Alternator Bolts. This will give the Best Ground for the new Alt.
Escapemax

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Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Richmond, Va
Posts: 60

That'll work, but I tend to only want to do things once. So I like to do it right the first time, and not worry about it again.

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3rd Gear

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 326

quote:

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Originally posted by tekrsq
This is our first Escape, and I'm not sure if/when things have been changed from earlier models.

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The 05 was the first major change (at least ascetically speaking).

quote:

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Sounds good. Get the fuse block as close as possible to the alternator, without puting it in a dangerous place.

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Yeah I know. The top of the firewall is the closest I can get it where I can actually get to it if I ever need to replace it. Damn Ford!!!

quote:

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Man, 250 is a BEAST.

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It is WAAAAAY overkill for what I need, so was the 200 for that matter. I wanted the 200 just to make sure I had plenty of juice for the future, and he sent me the 250 cause he didn't want me to have to wait while he built a 200 stator.

quote:

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Can't confirm this, but I'd say you're probably right. Sounds about right.

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Yeah, that was it. I crawled under this morning and verified it. I also got a real good look at why everyone thinks this mounting is a poor design.

quote:

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Again, double check. BUT our 06 has it directly beside the battery, mounted on the firewall. I think it says something like "fusebox" on the cover.

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Found it. Thanks.

quote:

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You will probably be fine with 4g from the distr block to the battery (it's only 2 ft of wire).

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Mine is more like an 8g right now (fits in an 8g port on my battery terminal anyway).

quote:

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If you open the distr block, you should see 2 cables attached to the circuit block somewhere close to the front, usually on the side closest to the engine. 1 is red (from the battery), the other should be yellow/white(it is on the 06). The yellow/white is from the alternator. This is the cable you are looking to replace with 0 gauge & the 250 amp circuit breaker.

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Perfect info, found it right away.

So this (yellow/white) wire doesn't need to come all the way from the Alt, just my 250 fuse block?

quote:

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According to the diagram I have here for the 06, the alternator field coil wire is a black/yellow wire coming out of the wiring bundle from the alternator. This wire is run directly to fuse 9 in the distr block with a 15amp fuse. You should not have to change or move this wire IF yours is wired like this. Again, PLEASE confirm this with someone that has a wiring diagram for the 04 !!!!!!

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Sounds like what I found, but I have a 120 fuse bridging the red and yellow/white wires in my block.

quote:

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Again, confirm with an 04 diagram, but if your 04 is wired like the 06, then you can safely remove the yellow/white cable from the alt to the distr block. There is nothing else attached to this cable (except for a couple of fusible links).

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What about the harness from the Alt to the Battery?

quote:

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As for the ground from the battery, if your battery has (2) 6g cables from the negative post, then I wouldn't upgrade it unless you want to. That should be more than sufficient. If it only has (1) 6g or (2) 8g cables, then I would upgrade. I like to be a little on the safe (overkill) side when it comes to electrical issues.

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The old factory line from the battery to the wheel well was just a single line in the 8g range. I replaced it with a 4g when I swapped out my battery (needed extra length).

quote:

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I would DEFINETLY upgrade the grounding cable from the engine to the frame, though. A 6g cable (battery cable) is fine for this.

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Any idea (sounds like your info from the 06 is at least close enough for me to find it on the 04) where that is and what it looks like?

quote:

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I'll help anyway I can, but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE double check all this with someone that knows about your 04 model !!!!!!!!!

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Thanks again. So far everything you have given me has been right on or at least close enough that I was able to find it.

Thanks,
-dave

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Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Richmond, Va
Posts: 60

quote:
Mine is more like an 8g right now (fits in an 8g port on my battery terminal anyway).

I wouldn't leave the 8g. Like I said, I would go atleast 4g between the battery and dist. block. It's hard say exactly without knowing what the alt puts out at idle, specific rpm, under load, etc.

quote:
Perfect info, found it right away.
So this (yellow/white) wire doesn't need to come all the way from the Alt, just my 250 fuse block?

GREAT !!! I was hoping they hadn't changed up colors. That yellow/white cable runs from the distribution block to the alternator. You will have to replace the entire length of it, putting your 250 fuse block in as close to the alt as possible.

quote:
Sounds like what I found, but I have a 120 fuse bridging the red and yellow/white wires in my block.

I think you're getting the wires confused. The red goes to the battery, the yellow/white to the terminal on the alernator, and the black/yellow (alternator field coil wire--probably about 18g) runs from the wiring harness plug on the alternator to the fused connection on the bus bar (fuse 9 hopefully). IF your 04 is wired like the 06s, then you don't need to concern yourself with the black/yellow wire. It will take care of itself when you plug the wiring harness into the new alternator. That wire just simply sends signal to the alternator's regulator to increase or decrease output depending on the demands of the electrical system. It doesn't carry any serious current.

quote:
What about the harness from the Alt to the Battery?

It's not actually a harness. Assuming the 04 is wired like the 06, it's simply the yellow/white cable with a couple of fusible links. Once you run your 0g cable (and circuit breaker) from the dist block (where the yellow/white cable is now) to the terminal on the alternator (again, where the yellow/white cable is now), you can totally remove the yellow/white cable if you so desire.

Some people go through the hassle of removing the stock cable, while others leave it in place and tape it up out of the way. That way, when you get rid of the truck, you can put the stock alternator back on, and keep your high-output & wiring. The choice is yours.

quote:
The old factory line from the battery to the wheel well was just a single line in the 8g range. I replaced it with a 4g when I swapped out my battery (needed extra length).

Awesome. I would say that'll be fine unless you start doing serious modding like multiple sets of auxilary lights, BIG amp draw stereo equipment, winches, etc.

quote:
Any idea (sounds like your info from the 06 is at least close enough for me to find it on the 04) where that is and what it looks like?

Looking at ours, it's a single black 10g wire about 24" long run from the top of the head (near the #1 spark plug) down to a grounding post on the frame rail. I hope my pic of the V6 component location diagram attaches to this. It's the wire circled
in red. You DEFINETLY need bigger wire for that. You can either replace that with 4g or do as Escapemax suggested.



quote:
Thanks again. So far everything you have given me has been right on or at least close enough that I was able to find it.

Thanks,
-dave

I'm glad !!!! I really get nervous trying to help someone when I don't have the specific info right in front of me.

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3rd Gear

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 326

quote:

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Originally posted by tekrsq
[quote]I wouldn't leave the 8g. Like I said, I would go atleast 4g between the battery and dist. block.

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3rd Gear

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 326

Ok. Here are some shots to help show what I am seeing with my dist block:



It's hard to tell, but the right cable is red and the left one is the yellow/white.

And for those that might be interested in seeing Ford's stupidity up close:

If you can wedge your head in between the engine and the firewall, you can actually get a good view.


This is what you see otherwise. I circled it just incase it's not obvious where it is


And here is the best view from underneath (wheel well).


-dave

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Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Richmond, Va
Posts: 60

quote:

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Originally posted by gnat
Yeap. Have to think about it some though. There isn't enough room to get a 0g or 4g cable in (let alone two).

Ok, now i'm confused.

I have:
1) a big old thick (~4g) cable going to the positive post of my battery.
2) Small (~8g) red cable coming off the positive terminal and presumably going to the dist block (it routes under my battery pan so I have to assume until I can pull it out).
3) Small (~8g) yellow/white cable coming into the dist block along side #2.

There is also fuse bridging #2 & #3 where they come into the dist block.

What I think needs to happen:
1) #1 goes to the Alt and needs to be replaced with a 0g line with a 250 fuse as close to the Alt as possible.
2) #2 needs to be upgraded to atleast a 4g, but should probably be 0g anyway.
3) #2 goes to the Alt as well and needs to be replaced with a 0g line.
4) If practical, #2 can be ripped out when it's all done.

What i'm wondering:
1) Is #1 going anywhere else? Can it be removed?
2) Does #3 need to go all the way to the Alt, or can I split off from the replacement for #1?

What's going to be a pain in the ass:
1) #2 & #3 are ~8g right now. There isn't enough room to get 1 0g in there, much less 2.

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Man that's tight in there. Good Luck !!!!!!!!!

Apparently this is where we're seeing a few of the wiring differences. Our 06 doesn't have the 120amp fuse bridged across the red & yellow/white cables, & nowhere can I find it referenced in the 06 wiring diagrams. It's not a big deal though, it's just extra protection for you. You shouldn't have to pump more than 120 amps into the battery anyway. That alternator should supply more than enough juice to run all your accessories without ever having to tap into the battery for anything except starting the truck.

That brings up another point. Why do you have a yellow top Optima? Do you sit around with the stereo cranking, and the truck not running? From what I understand the yellow tops need to be "deep cycled" fairly regularly to make them last. The red top Optimas are better "starting" batteries. Just curious.

Now:
#1 cable (~4g red cable) on your + battery terminal SHOULD be going directly to the starter motor, and SHOULD NOT have anything else attached to it. If so, you can leave that alone.

#2 cable (~8g red cable) on your + battery terminal SHOULD be going to your dist block. Looking at the pics, I'd say that was a safe bet, but can be easily checked with an ohm meter to make sure once you disconnect the cables. That one I would upgrade to 4g cable. However, with that 120amp fuse there, that should protect the battery circuit from being overloaded, and you MIGHT get by with leaving that "as is". I would make every attempt to get a 4g cable in there, though, for peace of mind.

#3 cable (~8g yellow/white cable) coming from the dist block along side #2 cable. This is the cable going over to the terminal post on the back of the alternator. There SHOULD NOT be anything else attached to this cable except a couple of built in fusible links for overload protection. This cable & fusible links will have to be replaced with the 0g and 250amp fuse, and can be removed once the 0g is in place. Come to think of it, I would probably just put a 200 amp fuse in there anyway..just for an added safety margin.

From what I can see, you're biggest issues will be:
1- getting a 0g & 4g attached to the dist block. It looks tight, but from looking at ours, I think it can be done.

2- finding a battery terminal that will let you have (2) 4g cables attached to it (the existing big red going to the starter & the 4g that will be coming from the dist block).

3- and your BIGGEST challenge will be swapping out that alternator and routing the 0g to it so it doesn't come into contact with anything that will hurt it.

How we looking now???

If you run the new 0g from the alt directly to the battery (as Escapemax suggested), it'll definetly be easier. The problem will come if you don't upgrade the 8g cable between the bat & dist block. Leaving the 8g will work for a "stock" current draw on the system, but as you add stereo components, aux lights, neon under body lights, etc you stand a chance of needing more power to the system than the stock 8g can handle. Granted, that'll take some doing, but still a possibility.

Edit: forgot you had that 120amp fuse at the dist block. That SHOULD blow before you melt the 8g cable.

Last edited by tekrsq on 02-25-2007 at 06:47 PM

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3rd Gear

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 326

quote:

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Originally posted by tekrsq
That brings up another point. Why do you have a yellow top Optima? Do you sit around with the stereo cranking, and the truck not running? From what I understand the yellow tops need to be "deep cycled" fairly regularly to make them last. The red top Optimas are better "starting" batteries. Just curious.

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It was recommended (on here) over the red. I do have a computer installed that I do run without the engine on from time to time.

I hadn't heard/read anything about needing to deep cycle the battery on a regular basis, just that it can handle it when you do.

quote:

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#1 cable (~4g red cable) on your + battery terminal SHOULD be going directly to the starter motor, and SHOULD NOT have anything else attached to it. If so, you can leave that alone.

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Ahh. Ok. That clears a lot of things up

quote:

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1- getting a 0g & 4g attached to the dist block. It looks tight, but from looking at ours, I think it can be done.

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Yeah, i'm not looking forward to it after looking at a 0g terminal yesterday .
I'll have to hunt around and see if I can find some terminals that I don't have to trim too much.

quote:

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2- finding a battery terminal that will let you have (2) 4g cables attached to it (the existing big red going to the starter & the 4g that will be coming from the dist block).

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That is easy (already have one on each post). Finding one that handles 3 is a bigger pain (I already have a 4g running for my AMPs/computer).

The other option (which is probably easier) is to move my AMP/comp line off to the side posts, but I don't know anything about using them (mainly what to do with the neg terminal. do I need to run it directly to my amps/comp or do I just ground it to the frame with the top neg terminal?).

quote:

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3- and your BIGGEST challenge will be swapping out that alternator and routing the 0g to it so it doesn't come into contact with anything that will hurt it.

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It's still worth the $300 to have the dealer do it . I'm just going to run the new lines and then have them hook them up instead of the old stuff when they do the swap.

quote:

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How we looking now???

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I think much better. This is what I think needs to happen now:

1) 0g from Alt to fuse block.
2) 0g from fuse block to yellow/white terminal in dist block.
3) 4g from red terminal in dist block to pos battery post.

If that is really it, it's back to being simple again

Thanks,
-dave

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